Ivy Quad’s 2009 Sales Prices

by Nick Molnar on March 5, 2010

editor’s update, 1/28/11: The four buildings that make up phase 1 of Ivy Quad are nearly complete. For updated information, including 2010 sales prices and recent photos, visit our January 2011 Ivy Quad Update.

I’ve never liked secrets. I’m a believer that good things are better when shared, and poor behavior is lessened when exposed. I think Louis Brandeis phrased it nicely when he said “Sunlight is the best disinfectant.”

Applying that mentality to my work, I always cringe a little when I speak with someone who thinks real estate commissions come from  controlling access to information about homes for sale. That seems to be the least important offering I have for my clients.

If all you need is data, here is our IDX search – it gives you free, anonymous access to all the homes listed for sale with a Realtor in the county.  I require registration after you look at the details of 99 properties, but that is only to prevent commercial use of the service.

But if you are looking to buy property near Notre Dame, it won’t ask what you need in a house and tell you which neighborhoods make sense for you. It can’t tell you which condos have watchful managers and which are still managed by the developer. It doesn’t warn you about the complex that has sinkholes near some foundations or guide you away from the developments that would be in foreclosure if the banks thought they could sell them.

The truth is, data is cheap. It’s background knowledge and evaluation that has value.

Believing that, I work to post information here freely. And I am paid when I work with someone who values competent and personalized advice – and they successfully close on their purchase or sale. Most often I can access sales data with a few queries of the local MLS. Sometimes I have to find the (public record) sales disclosures, and occasionally this takes some legwork. In new developments that have yet to be assigned parcel numbers it can be especially challenging.

That’s the case with Ivy Quad, a condo development adjacent to and east of Notre Dame. They sell outside of the MLS and the developer has opted not to share details of his sales, stating concern for his buyer’s privacy. And that sales information is not readily available even at the county assessor’s office.

I respect the desire for privacy and I won’t share information like buyers’ names and phone numbers here, though they are also public record. But the price of closed sales is important and relevant information for anyone considering condos at Ivy Quad, or anywhere near Notre Dame. I believe those details should be available even to people who don’t have the time and inclination to ferret out the numbers themselves.

To that end, here’s the data for Ivy Quad. They closed four sales  in 2009. The final prices were:

  • $238,765 on May 20, 2009
  • $222,840 on June 4, 2009
  • $261,100 on July 9, 2009
  • $246,445 on August 14, 2009

If you’d like help making sense of these numbers, of Ivy Quad, and the entire Notre Dame Area property market, call or e-mail.


{ 24 comments… read them below or add one }

Irish Eyes March 5, 2010 at 4:08 am

EXCELLENT post!!!

My instincts were telling me that it would be the low priced units at Ivy Quad that would sell…around $250K. This should help people make informed decisions regarding large purchases. I wonder if all of the sales were arms length transactions or if one of the sales was for the model home (sale and leaseback which is a common arrangement)?

I prefer transparency too. There is enough games in real estate without withholding information that is public record. Hopefully the county will improve their online resources like many other counties have which display sales histories of each parcel, both past sales and recent sales within a week of closing.

If I know of anyone in the market to buy (or sell), then I will be sure to pass on your name.

Keep up the great work!

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Irish Eyes March 5, 2010 at 4:11 am

P.S. As a buyer’s agent, you’re doing the right thing. Only by knowing recent sales information in these new developments can you properly advise your clients. A good real estate agent, especially for people not familiar with the area, is hard to find. But anyone looking for one in the Michiana market should call you for sure!!!

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Dave March 7, 2010 at 8:28 pm

Nick, Can you provide links for the public records sites?

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npmolnar March 7, 2010 at 11:00 pm

The public records for St. Joseph County are not as updated and available online as I’d like to see.
The best web-sites I know of to view public information about properties in St. Joseph County are:

The Michiana Regional Geographic System for parcel information and tax assessments as well as traffic counts, township lines and other information. Choose Search St. Joseph County Parcels or Main GIS Map for most property searches.

And the State of Indiana’s web-site which allows you to search sales disclosures by county. Though unfortunately it doesn’t have details of recent sales.

I hope you find those sits helpful and informative. For many records, you need to contact the appropriate county department or individual directly. Contact me if you are looking for specific information and I may be able to point you in the right direction.

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Outside the Box March 9, 2010 at 5:09 pm

Hmmm. These sales statistics contradict a number of things I heard. Someone had to buy a unit below market because there are only 3 of the small units (1,200 sqft) in bulding 1 and 3 of the medium units (2,700 sqft). The $220,000-$260,000 range makes sense for the small units but not the medium units.

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Irish Eyes March 9, 2010 at 8:26 pm

Outside the Box – Not necessarily, the model of the small unit could have been sold to someone then leased back for use as the model. Happens all the time in developments. Perhaps someone knows who the buyers are and can post that…the info is public record and will be available in a few clicks once the county enters it.

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npmolnar March 9, 2010 at 10:34 pm

The units at 18420, 18424, 18426, and 18430 Kileen Court sold. All were to buyers with out of state addresses for their tax bills, who indicated these are not primary residences and that there is no “existence of family or business relationship between buyer and seller.”

If you want complete details, send me an e-mail.

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Irish Eyes March 9, 2010 at 10:53 pm

npmolnar – I guess the question Outside the Box had is, which type of unit [Clare (Flat), Ardeen (Town Home) or Laragh (Estate)] were each of the sales? I would think these were all the “Clare” units….if not, I would be surprised at the prices! And I’ll take an “Arleen” for those prices!!! I’ll even take two! 🙂

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npmolnar March 9, 2010 at 11:10 pm

I’d also be quite surprised if they were anything other than the smallest units, Clares.

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Irish Eyes March 10, 2010 at 12:19 am

npmolnar – The address numbers are consistent with Clares too. Since the addresses go Arleen, Clare, Arleen, Clare, Clare, Arleen, Clare, Arleen in the first building. That says one of the Clares sold was for the Clare model. What that means is only 34% of the s.f. of a building is sold if only the Clares are sold in a building. Per my previous posts, that spells trouble for the developer. If the numbers were the reverse and only the Arleens sold with 66% of the s.f. sold, then the developer could barely survive…and he’d have to lease out the empty units to meet debt payments. Perhaps some of the Arleens have sold this year to help out? You can’t carry on development of a project if you only sell 34% of a building, building after building. I think I had posted that it would be a good idea to make them all Clares (regarding price point, size, etc.), seems like that was a reasonable assessment of the market now.

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Outside the Box March 10, 2010 at 11:40 am

Thanks for the feedback. I was wrong as there are 4 small units in building 1. I wish the developer started the project now becuase the developer probably could have bought the land for a lower price so developer could reduce the proposed density.

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Irish Eyes March 10, 2010 at 12:12 pm

Outside the Box – Ivy Quad is one of the most dense condo developments (not county the urban ESC) with around 24 units per acre. Compare that with Irish Crossings across the street at around 9. That is a big difference. Normally the limit is around 12.

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Matt Sheldon March 16, 2010 at 11:13 am

Love your insights, especially about the Notre Dame condo market. We’ve been looking at purchasing in South Bend in anticipation of our daughter entering the university this autumn. Our research indicates the price per square foot at Ivy Quad is substantially lower than other offerings, and the quality of the buildings is noticeably better for the little things, like plumbing fixtures and doors / handles. Are we missing something?

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Irish Eyes March 16, 2010 at 5:30 pm

Matt Sheldon – Ivy Quad deserves a look, so does ESC and Irish Crossings (I’d skip Dublin Village)…perhaps Oak Hill at the right price….Wexford Place is a nice little, simple development too. It really depends on what you are looking for….to buy and have your daughter share with rent paying roommates? ND is a residential campus so don’t plan on your daughter living at the place for 3 years….perhaps you want the place for yourself to use? Right now North Douglas Condos is a no go in my book, Keenen Court is also a no go (same guy involved in Ivy Quad). You always have to look to see if a condo can be successful, in my book there is a big red flag or two with Ivy Quad, so do your homework (including how s.f. is calculated)…I’m NOT saying don’t buy in Ivy Quad but I have a concern if the two larger units (Ardeen and Laragh) don’t sell and where that leaves the development going forward. That would be my primary concern. Most of the quality developments are selling for $150-$200/s.f. You don’t want to get stuck with an over priced home/condo in the South Bend market. If your daughter is going to be a freshman this fall, you’ve got a year to look around, take your time. Good luck.

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Outside the Box March 17, 2010 at 1:23 pm

Here is a good value in New London Lake that you could renovate and make money when you go to sell it.

http://www.cressyeverett.com/lid=52211916&temp=

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npmolnar March 17, 2010 at 3:14 pm

That does seem good price for a townhouse-style unit at New London Lake. Though I haven’t yet been in that unit.

One word of warning though, if you are buying as an investment at New London Lake, pay sepcial attention to the covenants:

1. They require owners to gain board approval to rent a unit, I don’t believe they often allow it.
2. They also prohibit residents between the ages of 18 and 25 unless they reside with at least one legal parent on a full time basis.

Those restrictions, which I believe to be the most strictly enforced in any of the Notre Dame condos, maintain a quiet atmosphere at New London Lake. But they also cut down on the number of interested buyers – the complex won’t work for most undergraduate students and investors.

You should try the Realst8.com property search 🙂

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K March 18, 2010 at 12:18 am

Since commuting is pretty much a non-issue in the South Bend/Mishawaka area, you may also want to look at Topsfield (on the south side, about 15 minutes from ND), Somers Square (same) or Berkley Square in Mishawaka. These are all lower priced ($57-150K) condos in safe areas. All are only about 15 minutes from campus. This area may be more conducive to study, as they are in primarily middle class residential areas. Still quite a convenient commute to classes and activities. The bus line also runs through these areas should your daughter’s friends want to visit. While older (1970’s-1990’s), most are pretty well maintained. Good square footage for the money.

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Tom March 18, 2010 at 9:45 pm

I purchased a Clare that is being built. My daughter is a freshman and I am an alum. I don’t think you can beat the location, price and quality. It’s like beach front property. You can walk accross the street to campus. I don’t think there are many properties like this at most major universities. There will always be a demand to lease these. The res life at Notre Dame is very strict and the students can’t wait to move off campus. Room and board is close to $11,000 and will go up every year. I believe all the Clares are under agreement on the Quad part and there are only three Ardeens left on the Quad. College kids today do not want to share a small dorm room with a bathroom down the hall. I thinkESC and Ivy Quad will be successful.

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Irish Eyes March 19, 2010 at 2:24 am

Tom – Interesting comment. As anticipated, the Clares would sell, but what about the Ardeens? If they don’t sell, do you really think the project can go forward? I don’t. Most projects need to be 70% (or more) sold before any profit can be realized. If just the Clares sell, then the numbers would be the reverse of 70% left to sell. I would be much more enthusiastic about this project if they only built Clares. An additional concern is the low sales prices of the first four units sold, clearly the developer is trying to build sales momentum up front but jeopardizing being able to go the distance. Time will tell. By the way, ND has bet the farm on dorm living….granted, they were “the only game in town” but they could always require students to live on campus for the first two years instead of just the first year. I know there had been talk of that possibility…or even longer. The Clare is a good purchase, don’t get me wrong, but I have concerns about the project being completed when I put pencil to paper. Time will tell. If I were buying in Ivy Quad, I’d pick one in a building on Twyckenham, just my preference.

K – The developments you mentioned just aren’t appealing to ND students, especially undergrads. A better bet would have been Stadium Club which was within walking/biking distance, but that was a total sales flop despite the low prices. I know it may sound shallow, but ND undergrads who are gonna have the ‘rents buy a place want a place to brag about.

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Matt Sheldon March 19, 2010 at 7:20 am

“Since commuting is pretty much a non-issue in the South Bend/Mishawaka area” ?

A fifteen minute commute each way is half an hour. When i was in school, there were three and four hour breaks between some class times, so let’s call it an hour a day for two commutes. What about evening classes, lectures, films or weekend events (add another 1/2 hour round trip and hike from the public parking areas at night)? Looks like more than eight hours a week in the car moving through the snow – that’s an eight hour work day a week commuting!

From Ivy Quad or ESC she can ride a bike around campus so let’s add walking time from outlying parking lots to the car commute time.

Looks like at least a 20% efficiency enhancement for her to live very close to campus vs. a work day a week in the car.

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Irish Eyes March 19, 2010 at 11:22 pm

According to the Ivy Quad website, as of today, there are 3 Clares, 5 Ardeens, and 3 Laraghs available. Caveat, “available” in developer speak can mean a lot of different things. But assuming that the rest of the units that are not available in phase one are under contract or sold, that would mean to date, 1 Ardeen and 9 Clares are not available (with 1 Ardeen and 1 Clare as models).

So, it is pretty clear the Clares are selling, but not the larger more expensive units. It will be very interesting to see if a Laragh sells and at what price…will it be twice the price of an Ardeen, or more or less? Will anyone really want to spend $700K+ on a condo in this development or for any condo in Michiana??? I wonder what the most expensive condo in Michiana actually is?

An interesting development to watch and serves as an indicator for the market. Stay tuned.

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Irish Eyes March 20, 2010 at 12:23 pm

One question, does the Clare have an optional 3rd bedroom or not? I was under the impression that all “legal” bedrooms needed to have a secondary means of egress, usually through a window of a certain size and height off the floor as specified in the building code. I know that was an issue at Oak Hill, but that is in the city while Ivy Quad is in the county.

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Irish Eyes March 23, 2010 at 11:14 pm

Here is another interesting observation about ND related housing. The Cottages of Pendle Woods started to sell homes in second half of 2004 (correct?). Fast forward 5.5 years and out of the 50 lots, 12 are vacant and 5 have new homes for sale (stats from their website). That’s 34% of the development that remains unsold. That is only 6 homes sold per year. Ouch. Not the sales velocity that they were shooting for I’m sure. Plus, there may be some resales in the development too that I haven’t looked up.

Looks like there are now 18 Oak Hill condos for sale on realtor.com, not including the for sale by owner units. Ouch too. The precious potential Oak Hill buyers are being pulled to either not buying anything or to other developments. Either way, Nick’s old posts on Oak Hill were correct.

The market for ND related housing is apparently not as large or as deep as previously thought. Is it too late to ask Lou to come back? LOL

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Blake Taelman April 22, 2010 at 11:40 am

Nick,
Always enjoy the blog! We have built all the homes in Pendle. There are currently three homes for sale, and all are new construction. One of the three is currently under construction. There are 9 lots left. No resales to my knowledge.
Three units left at Stadium Village.

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